Gorilla Cage Being Phased Out?

[Tom Holsinger]

I just noticed that references to the "Gorilla Cage" framing system have mostly been eliminated from the Crossroads web site. The older links to specific files describing it in detail, with photos, are gone.



Someone on the RV.net asked today for evidence that the Lippert frames used by most 5th wheel manufacturers really are built to the individual specifications of the manufacturers, so I tried to find the Crossroads links to its Gorilla Cage frame system with the very convincing photos of that. All those links are now gone. That has implications.



I would very much like to know if Crossroads is phasing out the Gorilla Cage, both as a term, and separately as what had been the chief construction difference between most Crossroads 5th wheels versus those ofits competitors. It would be concerning if the major advantage of Crossroads 5th wheels is in fact being phased out.



Does anyone have information on this?

[Hunter11]

Best bet would be to call them and ask.

[calliopeguy]

The construction section still specifically states Gorilla construction but I also did not find mention of the 20 page construction brochure. It would be really sad to see them join the laminated group...I think it would place them in a very tough competitive market and possibly cause a few more empty buildings in that part of Indiana

[hhh]

Lippert frames has nothing to do with the Gorilla construction. The aluminum frame named the Gorilla construction has to do with the floor, walls and roof.

But as a side note I believe that frames are build to a manufacturers specs. When mine was taken apart at the Crossroads factory for a few frame modifications, the Lippert folks were there and wondered about the frame rails being 4 gauge steel as that thick of steel is not normally used. They asked Randy if Crossroads speced that thick of steel.

[Tom Holsinger]

Hunter, I very much doubt any company representative would admit something like this is true, particularly over the telephone to someone not known to them personally. OTOH, it would be easy to deny if the cage construction method continues in use. I'm hoping the web stite changes are temporary.



Given that it is summer and factory tours are encouraged, perhaps someone here who lives in Indiana could simply go by the Crossroads factory to look at 5th wheels beiing assembled. The cage frame construction method is quite obvious visually.

Originally Posted by Hunter11

Best bet would be to call them and ask.

[Hunter11]

When I look atany of the Cruiser 5th wheel or travel trailer tabs off the main Crossroads page and look under "construction" I still see the gorilla cage construction listed. Nothing has changed there. I think Dave and his crew are still making updates to the web site and documentation so that may be why some things have gone missing. Edited by: Hunter11

[gossamar]

Something to ask at the rally while on tour....or at the owners forum....

[dalemac377]

I agree with Keith (Hunter11), I see the gorilla cage reference on the construction tabs. Can't believe Crossroads would change something that important to their quality and marketing.

[WoodcarvingGypsy]

I'd suggest calling the sales line. It may be that Crossroads is going to a welded cage instead of the rivet/screw arrangement they have today. That plus they may be laminating their own sidewalls from the welded tubing.

If that's the case, then this could be an improvement.

Just my observation.

[Tom Holsinger]

WoodcarvingGypsy,



I thought it might be somethng like a change towelding rather than rivet/screw.We'd be lucky if it is only that, and not outright dropping of the Gorilla Cage. Welding is much easier to do, both correctly and incorrectly, but rivet/screw is much easier to inspect. Given the same cage, there should be little difference in construction strength between the two if the welding is done right.



Which is the problem with RV construction. Given the turnover in line construction personnel due to competitive pressure PLUSthe absence of true mass production standards (i.e., the robotic, computer-controlled,welders used in the automotive industry), there is a constant influx of new, inexperienced, welding personnel with lesser skills and personal issues (substance abuse, etc.)that affect their job performance. And, unless inspectors are all over them, which is expensive, it is more difficult to spot a good weld from a bad one, particuarly after painting, than for isnpectors to spot improper rivet/screw assembly.



So we RV buyers all too often buy RV's with welding-related frame problems ranging from inconvenient to potentially fatal. Crossroads had avoided most of that with rivet/screw construction. It cost more but made inspection much easier, and so ensured greater consistency in framing at a slight overall increase in cost given that inspection costs are lower.



Now a welded cage frame is better than not having a cage, i.e, Crossroads 5th wheels with full welded cages will still be stronger and better than comparable 5th wheels of its competition which lack the full cages. But the older Crossroads5th wheelswith rivet/screw cages will still be more reliably durable than newer Crossroads 5th with welded cages.



So a move away from rivet/screw to welding is a bad thing overall, save maybe that the cost savings will keep Crossroads from going out of business. Management might have this in mind.



Now a switch to computer-controlled robotic welding would be an absolute improvement, but my understanding of RV industry economics is that such welding devices are still far too expensive given the limited size of the production runs of each given RV model.

Originally Posted by WoodcarvingGypsy

I'd suggest calling the sales line. It may be that Crossroads is going to a welded cage instead of the rivet/screw arrangement they have today. That plus they may be laminating their own sidewalls from the welded tubing.

If that's the case, then this could be an improvement.

Just my observation.

[hhh]

Crossroads is not changing their construction methods.

[BWS]

We were at the rally and Factory Tour in August. Yes Crossroads is changing there construction. The frame will now be welded, not screwed. They are doing this to keep costs down. Crossroads is aware of the problems with welding and were trying to assure us that they will do everything possible to maintain the integrity of there frames.

[carl]

To clear up any misunderstanding, the Lippert frames have always been welded, but the aluminum sidewalls and roof were screwed. I never saw any riveting on Lipperts frame assembly lines and I was there many times.

[BWS]

Yes I think the Lippert frames remain the same, but the Aluminum sidewalls and roof are going to be welded on the 2012 models. Crossroads took quite a bit of flac at the rally about this issue because as owners like yourself, we felt this was one thing that set them apart. I see their point on cost, but hope it does not come back to bite them.

[mwebber78]

Cheaper isn't always better, there's a reason others use the clip and screw/glue because it works and flexes with the body. Welding aluminium isn't easy and in the aerospace business I'm in it's a coveted certificate as proper welding of this material takes skill. No offense but I just can't see the RV business investing in the training needed and giving the welder time to properly weld. Did CR say if they are spot welding or are they dropping a full bead on the joints? Many companies only spot weld than laminate the walls. I hope the next step for CR isn't block foam walls in the Cruiser. If they switch to laminated walls they'd loose a customer in me. Edited by: mwebber78

[CruiserJoe]

Don't know about the term "Gorilla Cage" but during the factory rally tour they explained that they were in the process of switching from bolted together frame for walls and floor to welding. As of now some lines have switched to welding while others are still being bolted. They have brought in training and new equipment to make sure it is done right. The new welded frames are supposed to be as good or better at a reduced cost. By the way, if you haven't seen the Sahara, it is looking good.

[fixit5561]

I didnt think about this while at the rally when I was questioning the rep about the welds, but since they are going to be saving money by using welded framing instead of bolt together frameing, does this mean that the price of a new Crossroads is going to go down?



And yes they are doing a full bead on one side of the weld. They are not going to do a full bead on both sides of the tubing, which is asking for trouble if you ask me.



But I bet their pencil necked geeks in the upper officesfigured out that if they welded them they would have more of a failure rate but, that rate was still going to be so small that they will still make better profits, even if they have a larger failure rate than if they just kept using the screw together method.



Its a shame that they are going to sideline their marketing of the Gorilla cage just to make a few extra bucks and have their customers have to deal with a higher failure rate of sidewall construction.



PS by the way while at the factory rally tour,I looked at their welds on the frames they had exposed and I was not impressed at all, there was some that did have burn through on the framing, which does weaken the joint. Like I said it is a shame.

[dalemac377]

Shame on Crossroads for going this route. Glad we bought ours when we did. This would be a deal breaker for us. The Gorilla cage was a strong selling point and gave Crossroads an advantage over other brands in their price range.

[ClassicHammond]

Now I haven't been a welder since the 70's but I doubt little has changed. The welds have no possibility of working loose as a screwed joint would. I'd have to assume the welded walls will be more rigid than screwing, stronger as long as correctly done, if that is not a problem, since much of the adhesives used are engineered to have some flex. A poor weld is no more detrimental than a stripped screw...and when screwing into aluminum........I looked at several of the welds and was rather impressed...alum is soft with a lower melting point and burn through could be an issue. ...actually they could look great andhave incorrect penetration...only x-ray or cutting apart can be positively conclusive....As whether the process is better or worse, only time will tell.

[ClassicHammond]

I guess my point...this would never deter me from purchasing a Crossroads products.I don't see why The Gorilla Cage requires screwing It's the same design. Would you want your steel frame screwed?