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Old 01-26-2014, 06:29 AM   #1
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Gorilla cage

I see a lot of people commenting on the gorilla cage. And that in the 2014 models it will be replaced with wood. Am I understanding correctly that this is a good thing? Just wondering why
Thanks for the input
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Old 01-26-2014, 06:44 AM   #2
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The question about wood vs. aluminum is not black and white. Both have pros and cons and both can be done very well or poorly. IF Crossroads is changing to wood studs on some or all models for 2014, then until the product hits the road, no one will know the answer.
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Old 01-26-2014, 08:27 AM   #3
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When I bought the used Cruiser I have now last year from a Crossroads dealer, the owner of the dealership was lamenting the fact that the current models at that time had gone from the "glued and screwed" gorilla cage to an all-welded gorilla cage in order to save costs. He felt like the glued and screwed version was better, for whatever reason, and that I was buying a better unit than if I were purchasing a new one. The only thing I can figure on that is that the welded version doesn't give as the unit sways and bounces around on the road and may tend to have stress breaks at the welds. As for wood versus aluminum, as long as it is kept dry wood should be at least as good as aluminum, but would add a lot more weight to the unit. I'm not sure why they believe it would be better quality with wood, but maybe I'm missing something.
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Old 01-26-2014, 09:05 AM   #4
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My be are pullers should switch back wood spoke wheels. "It's Cost!!!!!.Cheaper to make it and comes down to ROM, Return on margin.
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Old 01-26-2014, 11:15 AM   #5
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From the Crossroads website:

"Contributing to our product durability is:
  • Lightweight all-aluminum construction that gives you more towing options.
  • One-piece, seamless, rubber roof that offers durability and extra resistance to leaks.
  • Plywood roof and floor decking that resists moisture degradation common with OSB construction.
  • Smooth fiberglass exterior for easy maintenance."
and....


"

2014 Cruiser Standards & Options

Exterior:

  • Hard-Shell laminated sidewalls
  • 5-Sided Aluma frame construction"
Never heard that they are going back to the inferior wood construction.
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Old 01-26-2014, 12:21 PM   #6
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I have to agree with you as far as aluminum has to be much more superior than wood construction. Also welded is better than screwed and glued.
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Old 01-26-2014, 01:19 PM   #7
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I disagree, the screwed and glued method is still used by Cedar Creek, Lifestyle (new Carriage), and other high end manufacturers. The idea is screwing and gluing allow flex in the body to allow movement without cracking a weld. I will note, the new Cruiser doesn't have fully welded studs, more like a spot weld or tack weld. The move to fully vacuum or pinch rolled lamination means a partial failure of a wall requires a full wall replacement versus the ability to repair a section. While the volume models have switched to laminated walls, the Gorilla Cage and hung wall construction was a hallmark of Crossroads. So was quality, but that left a few years ago.
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Old 01-26-2014, 02:39 PM   #8
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I don't understand why movement or "flexing" in a camper is a good thing. Flexing means something is bending and after many or few cycles something will fail in the attachment point. Truck manufacturers have been talking about stronger stiffer less flex for years. I have seen many examples of flexing problems in aerospace, automotive, components over the years. Unless you design the part to move in the first place it will fail. I really don't think CR or other RV manufacturers have invested in very expensive CAD modeling or modal testing with the goal of making things flex more. When we have many exsamples of problems on this forum and other forums with to much flex.
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Old 01-26-2014, 02:56 PM   #9
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Again, I'll be the voice of disagreement. As an example, a boxed frame on a pickup truck is engineered to provide ridgidity and torsional strength but the body mounted to it is often mounted using a rubberized or hydraulically mounted damper to allow for movement and flexing. Too much ridgidity came be more damaging then engineered movement.

On the topic of aerospace, I'm in my 18th year working in the field of airframes and propulsion. Take the composite wings of the Boeing 787 - do you think it was an oversight that the wing is composite and dynamically designed to move with the airframe and respond to the load? How about the composite fan case of the CFM Leap engine, it's designed to allow movement in an uncontained failure to absorb the energy of the event.
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Old 01-26-2014, 03:45 PM   #10
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You are correct and make valid point when related to the Big Dream but we are talking about Crossroads. I really don't think CR is doing the research and testing to validate there design. I bet accounting is running the cut past design group anyway. It's only my opinion only and not a argument. Cooped it in the house for two day due a thing called a blizzard. I'm also working the 787,380 Honda Jet for the short list. And working as dynamic reliability engineer for, will say a long time. Key words : Vibration and flex is different.
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Old 01-26-2014, 03:50 PM   #11
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Enjoy that blizzard, I'm happy to see someone else with snow

How is the Honda Jet coming along, it fell out of the press a bit ago and I've not seen much press lately?
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Old 01-26-2014, 04:08 PM   #12
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I just finished up testing on some landing gear stuff. You know how Boeing has a there checkers who have there double checkers and Honda has there watchers. That's why they building this thing for over 20 years. What state are you in.
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Old 01-26-2014, 04:12 PM   #13
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Maine - working composites for the CFM Leap engine currently. Looking forward to leaving the development/testing cycle and jumping into the production ramp to outfit the A320NEO, B737 Max, and the Comac C919.
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Old 01-26-2014, 07:13 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LeBo View Post
...talking about Crossroads...working the 787,380 Honda Jet for the short list... Vibration and flex is different.
When we go to the factory rally and tour this summer, I will be asking about this. We all need to know.

LeBo, the Honda Jet is on my things to do. If they could get them into production, it would be great. My sister lives very close to their R&D facility.

Yes, totally agree that vibration and flex are two different animals.
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Old 01-26-2014, 07:36 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mwebber78 View Post
I disagree, the screwed and glued method is still used by Cedar Creek, Lifestyle (new Carriage), and other high end manufacturers. The idea is screwing and gluing allow flex in the body to allow movement without cracking a weld. I will note, the new Cruiser doesn't have fully welded studs, more like a spot weld or tack weld. The move to fully vacuum or pinch rolled lamination means a partial failure of a wall requires a full wall replacement versus the ability to repair a section. While the volume models have switched to laminated walls, the Gorilla Cage and hung wall construction was a hallmark of Crossroads. So was quality, but that left a few years ago.
With laminated sidewalls will also come delamination problems. There has to be a better way to increase profit.
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Old 01-30-2014, 09:00 PM   #16
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Simple fact, ridgid things break. Flexible things distribute the load and last longer.

Just watch the wings flex then next time you get on an airliner. If they didn't flex to take and distribute the load I wouldn't want to be on one!

In addition, welding of aluminum, unless done under very controlled conditions, can cause a change in heat treatment (or create an unwanted heat treatment) of the heat effected zone which is why a welded joint will usually breake adjacent the weld, not in the weld itself. Thus the old addage, "the weld will be stronger than the surrounding metal". And of course, the weld is usually thicker than the base metal also.

I'll keep my "glued and screwed" gorilla cage thanks.
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Old 01-30-2014, 09:49 PM   #17
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I think everyone is missing the flexibility of an aluminum tube. It is not as rigid as one would think. This flexing of the tube allows the joint to suffer less.

From Vac Aero, a company that provides metallurgical services to aerospace and tech industries worldwide:

Welding

"In aluminum, welding creates a joint with strength that generally is much higher than can be attained through any of the other common joining processes. The melting and subsequent resolidification of the base metal in the joint area can produce a joint with mechanical properties close to that of the base metal itself. Similarly, the physical properties of the welded joint (conductivity, corrosion resistance, EMI shielding) can approximate those of the base metal. Furthermore, most common aluminum alloys are weldable by normal commercial methods.

Mechanical Joining
Mechanical fastening produces a relatively strong joint, often at a comparatively low cost. The process is compatible with all aluminum base metals. Unfortunately, mechanical fasteners often are unsuitable for joining thin sections in soft materials like aluminum because of the base metal's inadequate strength."



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Old 01-31-2014, 07:00 AM   #18
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Old 02-01-2014, 08:02 AM   #19
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You will not find aluminum welding common in the structure of the airframes I am familiar with. One reason is that mechanical or chemical fasteners are easier to inspect and produce a more consistent output. The only fail safe way to inspect a weld is uCT or NDT. I'll take the previous Crossroads wall construction method any day.
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Old 02-01-2014, 12:29 PM   #20
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No problem, you can have it.
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