Request your help RE pin box movement

[Dayle1]

Originally Posted by cruzinfools

I would hope Crossroads or Lippert would step up to the plate and address the issue so we all could know what is up before the warranty or a bad thing happens. Have a trip planned will check mine when I get back as it moves quite a bit compared to my old one. I wish that I would have done more research on this new trailer as I am not at all happy with it.Â*

Manufacturers don't have infinite knowledge, sometimes it really takes customer feedback for a manufacturer to both recognize an issue and understand it. For example the Toyota sudden acceleration issue. There are plenty of examples. And sometimes research can't tell you about a potential issue that existing owners don't even know about or haven't communicated. Best solution is to check out your unit and see how it compares to others.

[cruzinfools]

Dayle1 I'm with Hunter 11 looks like to me that all the problems lay in the new frame design. Think they would know as they build them and have for serveral years,I hope you don't own one of these as it is alot more money than my 08 Re was!

[dalemac377]

When was this new notched frame design implemented? Our 2010 30skp was built in July of 2009. I believe it must be the old style because I haven't noticed this type of flexing.

[hhh]

The notched frame is used with the new "aero" front cap. The flat front rigs do not have the notched frame.





Edited by: hhh

[avvidclif]

Larry,



Where did you have that done? They seemed to do an excellent job.

[Dayle1]

Hank is right, if you have the notched front cap then you have the notched frame. My understanding is it has been in production for a little more than 1 yr., so at this point they are all still under warranty.



Repairs on my unit were done at Toppers RV outside Houston. The Lippert mobile tech came in from near Ft. Worth.

[Dayle1]

I picked up the repaired Cruiser today and took some quick measurements when I got home. Sorry, no pictures, I was tired and it was too hot this afternoon.



Interior bedroom floor flex was 9/16 inch, now 3/8 inch for a 3/16 inch improvement.



Exterior pin box flex measured to a fixed reference was 1-11/16 inch, now 1-3/16 inch for a 1/2 inch improvement.



While I didn't measure it yet, I can clearly see that there is almost no pin box movement relative to the front cap. Prior to the repair, there was considerable movement. I also didn't check the front crossmember to closet floor clearance yet either. I will probably repeat all the measurements in a day or so. It may just be wishful thinking, but towing home on NOT the best roads in Texas, the Cruiser seemed tighter.

[avvidclif]

Who did the welding, the dealer or the Lippert tech? That's the trick, the blueprints show exactly what to do but the follow thru is the key.

[Dayle1]

Originally Posted by avvidclif

Who did the welding, the dealer or the Lippert tech? That's the trick, the blueprints show exactly what to do but the follow thru is the key.

Lippert dispatched their welder and he did a great job. Lippert is still responsible for the frame warranty since they have done all the work. I believe this was the first repair at a dealer's facility and the blueprints were not exactly right, that is why I made an extra 300 mile roundtrip while the welder was there and together we corrected two errors. And I have communicated these issues to Randy for future reference.



I will have some more data to post tomorrow.

[hhh]

Larry, Did they put "L" bracket supports from the side rails to the underside of the sidewalls?

[Dayle1]

Originally Posted by hhh

Larry, Did they put "L" bracket supports from the side rails to the underside of the sidewalls?

Hank,

Yes, I saw him install the "L" brackets. I left before the special countersunk screws were put in because the dealer had to go purchase them. But the Lippert tech explained that they had to be long enough to go completely thru the wood filled bottom aluminum wall plate. I am confident they were installed.

[Dayle1]

Today I rechecked the pin box movement with the same technique of using a bottle jack in the truck bed and the laser sitting on a ladder. The number was slightly better than what I quickly measured on Saturday, 1 inch compared to the pre-repair number of 1-11/16 inch. I also checked the pin box movement relative to the amber clearance light on the front cap and it was 3/8 inch compared to the pre-repair number of 3/4 inch. Both of these numbers are extremely close to what Hank has reported after the repairs to his 285RL





Also did another setup to take out any impact of suspension sag, uneven setup between the two front legs and slop in the pins and gear of the front legs. This is NOT equivalent to how the factory checked Hank's trailer, but probably a better indicator of actual flex since it should minimize error. First picture shows the laser clamped to the side storage compartment frame. Another option would be to just set the laser level on the entrance step.





Second picture shows a steel stud attached to the top of the pin box using the aero cover mounting holes. This just barely works due to the lower sides of my truck bed. The ‘target’ is a yellow yardstick hanging from the steel stud.





This picture shows the laser spot while unhitched.





Final picture is the laser spot with the trailer hitched up. Total movement is slightly less than 1/2 inch.







Total distance between laser and target was 111 inches. If anyone wants to try and do a similiar test, if you have the Roto-flex pin box then plywood can be wedged between the pin box and the base plate frame on both sides to support an 8 ft horizontal support for the target. Make this as tall as possible to clear the truck bed and you may also need to raise the hitch to it’s highest setting. Or you can raise and lower the trailer by some other means, a forklift, a bottle jack with blocking.



I’ve got a couple more comments about the repairs. In Hank’s original thread, myself and ‘gball’ posted pictures of movement in the closet floor, mine was 9/16 inch. Thursday I posted a picture with the cap removed showing the same issue and we made no attempt to fix this problem during the repair process. But after towing the Cruiser home on Saturday, the gap between the closet floor and the front crossmember has disappeared. More proof that the frame flex has been reduced. Note: this symptom does not appear on all units with the new frame, depends on where and how well the floor is secured to the steel frame.



And there are several minor differences if you compare the pictures of mine and Hank’s repairs. The front extensions on mine stick out beyond the front wall for an easier welding job. And the ‘C’ channel horizontal braces are installed flat side toward the front of the trailer.



I'm ready to declare the repairs on my Cruiser a success. One final comment, I don't know how much flex or stress can be too much. But the point of greatest concern for me was the crossmember attachment to the side rail. In my opinion, spot welding the double crossmembers together and adding the gussets under the bedroom floor spread the stress over a larger portion of the frame and so reduce risk.

[hhh]

You didn't happen to get measurements after each step of the modification so it could be seen what effect each step had?

[Dayle1]

Originally Posted by hhh

You didn't happen to get measurements after each step of the modification so it could be seen what effect each step had?

Hank,

That would have been great. But it was not possible w/o interferring with the repair team.

[Dayle1]

Here is a summary of measurements reported on new Cruisers with the notched front cap for anyone wanting to measure their 2011-2012 unit for comparison.



pin box tobedroompin box tocloset floor

front capfloorext. ref.gap

Forum ID model7 digit VINmovementmovementmovement



happycamper325CKE007508 3/4"1/2"

hhh285RLE007614 15/16" 1-1/2"0

n/a325CKE008313 13/16"1/2"1-11/16"0

Dayle1 32MK E008324 3/4"9/16"1-11/16"9/16"

gball335SSE008358 3/4"9/16"



Pin box to cap movement is measured between the amber clearance light and the front of the pin box.



Bedroom floor movement is detailed on page 1 of this thread, post dated July 18th.



Pin box to ref. movement is detailed on page 3 of this thread, post dated July 22nd.



Closet floor gap is checked from inside the pin box when unhooked. Depends on how well the floor is secured to the front crossmember. This picture shows nails that are rubbing on the crossmember.

[calliopeguy]

Very interesting thread! I am just curious however if anybody has checked with other brands of 5th wheels to see if they have similar problems or at least how much flex they experience?
Just a side note for whatever its worth.....was driving beside an empty flat bed semi-trailer last week and noticed an extreme upward bow in the length of the trailer. Then I noticed the bed of the trailer is bolted to a huge metal frame which I assume bends significantly to a level position when under heavy load. Apparently that huge metal beam is expected to bend that much every time the trailer is loaded and is considered normal.
I'm amcurious to know if there was ever any confirmed damage or interference with normal camping due to the pinbox flex problem? Since I now own one of the Crossroads with the possible frame problem, am I correct in assuming this thread is about the possibility of future failure due to the excessive flex?
One last question, does anybody know which of the Cruisers have a 10" I-beam?

[Dayle1]

Originally Posted by calliopeguy

Very interesting thread! I am just curious however if anybody has checked with other brands of 5th wheels to see if they have similar problems or at least how much flex they experience?
Just a side note for whatever its worth.....was driving beside an empty flat bed semi-trailer last week and noticed an extreme upward bow in the length of the trailer. Then I noticed the bed of the trailer is bolted to a huge metal frame which I assume bends significantly to a level position when under heavy load. Apparently that huge metal beam is expected to bend that much every time the trailer is loaded and is considered normal.
I'm amÂ*curious to know if there was ever any confirmed damage or interference with normal camping due to the pinbox flex problem? Since I now own one of the Crossroads with the possible frame problem, am I correct in assuming this thread is about the possibility of future failure due to the excessive flex?
One last question, does anybody know which of the Cruisers have a 10" I-beam?

If anyone does look at other brands, it would be best to compare to another 'notched' frame model. From what I have seen, it is pretty common for flatbeds to have a crown or bow. If significant flex was designed into a trailer frame like the flatbed trailer, then the RV body could not be bolted directly to it, but would instead require some type of isolation mounting. Kind of like how the truck cab is mounted on it's frame.



Since the new frame has been in use just slightly over one year, it may be too early to have confirmed damage or problems camping. However, since the plywood floor is attached to the steel frame with power driven nails, if it pulls loose (which it does in some cases), then there is an issue with how much the frame is flexing vs. how much the trailer body is designed and built to tolerate. May not affect camping, but it's not quite right.



My original intent was to obtain info on older Cruisers to help calibrate how much flex is normal. There are many units and miles of experience with the older frame (including my previous '04 unit). Seems like 1/4 inch is pretty common for the old frame. You may want to measure your 2012 model and compare it to the other units with the notched frame.

[hhh]

No one ever told me that the amount of flex I had would lead to issues down the road. But since these changes have been incorporated into the new frames now being used I would say that it is something that concerned them.

For additional information, during the factory tour I took last weekend the Crossroads rep did say that the frames do flex during travel and that the rest of the trailer is designed to accommodate this flex.

Below is a picture of a new frame in the construction phase.



Edited by: hhh

[fhenn]

The two that I am aware of with the 10 inch frame is the CF32BL and the CT31GR that was in 2008 when I purchased mine

[albertr]