Liability

[Lloyd]

Yesterday, (Friday) I noticed a lot of RV’s going by the house. There is several campgrounds in the area, plus it seems to be a good route coming off the freeway to head further up north. Apparently all lucky people able to get away for a long weekend of camping, relaxation, and family fun.


What caught my attention was the great number of TT and tow vehicles that were not setup properly on the hitch. Many were low on the rear of the tv and low on the front of the tt. The majority of these all seemed to be brand new rigs. Which leads to the point of this post.


We all know, or should know that RV salesmen will tell you just about anything they figure it will take to get you to sign on the dotted line and make a sale. Some seem to have way fewer scruples then others. They will let the new unaware younger buyers out on the road with setups that are down right dangerous. Not only for the buyer and his or her family, but for everyone else that is out there on the roads as well.



In my opinion, they should be held accountable and liable for any accidents that result from their negligence on these situations. Most of these clowns know when they are selling a camper that is way to big for the tt, and if they don't, the service dept. surely does. There has to be a red flag that pops up in one place or the other.


I think everybody should contact there congressman/women and demand they get some type of legislation going to address this crap.
Until these guys are held accountable and know they can and will face litigation for their total disregard of human safety, I’m afraid this type of sales practice will just continue.


There, rant over. I just had to get it off my chest.

[660catman]

I agree with what you’re saying and I think it’s the uneducated salesman selling to an uneducated buyer. Uneducated in the sense of proper towing and hookup. I don’t see a lot of sagging loads however they think towing a 7000 lb trailer at 75 MPH is safe!!
When I bought my camper the service guy came out with wrong bars. They were too light and I told him I needed the 1200 lb bars. He also set up the WD too light for a loaded trailer. Loaded I had to have link set at second link above bar!! I didn’t have tools to change it so I went back to dealer and told him what I needed.
Dealer went into bankruptcy the year after I bought mine. Another dealer I gave a deposit on for my first camper tried to screw me with the bait and switch. Day before court date he gave me my deposit back. They went bankrupt shortly after that. I sure know how to pick them lol.

[4kids2dogs&RV]

While I agree that the sales folks will tell you anything, IMHO, I believe it's the buyer's responsibility to know what their vehicle is capable of towing safely and correctly.

People need to look in the mirror instead of blaming others for their lack of research prior to making such decisions.

We definitely don't need govt making more laws for us, they seem to have a hard enuf problem following the constitution the way it is written already.

[DavisK]

I agree with John. I never depend upon a salesman for any information. Every time I go to a dealership to buy a new car I know more about the vehicle than the salesman because I have researched it prior to visiting the dealer. In fact, when I first test drove my SS, I had to show the salesman how to start it. So, when I visit an RV dealership, I am definitely not going to trust anything he tells me about the capabilities of my truck.

[Papa-T]

Yea, I always point out to my wife when I see a camper being pulled down the road and it’s sitting un-level. Or if it’s obvious that it’s to much camper for the tow vehicle. LOL

[Lloyd]

I think a couple of you guys might have missed the point.
I wasn’t referring to older seasoned buyers.
What my post was referring to was young first time buyers. Some of these guys never towed a trailer in their life. They get married, have a kid or 2 and want to go camping like the neighbors do, or with their friends . They don’t know squat about it. Some of the posts on this forum are a testament to it. And I’ve seen a lot of them over the years that I have been a member here.

So, like I stated in my first post. These sales people that talk them into anything and everything, should be held liable if their lies and BS causes accident and or injury.

I agree that after you get a few years of life behind you, you should have learned enough to start reading between the lines and maybe start doing a little research for yourself.


There again, everybody has and is entitled to their own opinion.

[Papa-T]

Agreed

[mark5w]

Your right Lloyd. The rookies are often lost and believe the salesman will steer them right. They gain experience after owing an rv for a few years and talking to the seasoned campers.

[sjk1998]

I agree also. There are some sales people out there that will tell an uneducated buyer anything to make a sale. Also I do believe that new buyers need to educate themselves better. The information is out there on the internet they just need to look for it. That’s why forums like this are so helpful to newbies and seasoned rv’ers.

[sleepyT]

Every once in a blue moon there has been a person that has become a member of this forum before they actually bought their camper to gather as much information as they can from experienced campers before they buy, but they are few and far between...I think that is a good practice but most don't think of it before they buy...

[Rrizz]

Im kinda on the fence with this one. Good points on both sides of the table, but "Buyer beware" comes to mind.
Legislation would come with higher prices at the dealerships to cover their A#$es, and what will that do to those who wish to sell/purchase used....there will be alot of trickle down on something like that. Do I need to be sure the guy I sell my trailer to isn't hauling it with an inadequate vehicle, or I'm on the end of the rope for anything that happens? What about those who blatantly overload, and never hit a scale prior to hiting the road? Should a scale slip be a requirement if something were to happen, and you are at fault to prove you are not overweight?
I don't think I want the government any deeper into me than they already are.
There are many other things that come to mind where the gov't could get involved with road safety issues. For example, Think about how many people are killed or injured playing with phones on the road. I'd say 7 out of 10 I see daily on the interstate at 75 mph are playing with phones and veering around on the road. Surely, the technology is there to scramble cellular data at say, 10 mph (think of auto-locking doors) and make phones unusable on the highways, but why is there no requirement for the manufacturers to implement it?
The gov't picks and chooses their battles, and the almighty $$$ makes the choices for them. Just my .02, if its worth that much.

[660catman]

I was just thinking that you have to put some blame on the tow vehicle manufacturers. The numbers they advertise are not really accurate. Take for example my truck. It’s stated in the manual it’s towing rating is 9500lbs. I call BS as GVW on truck is 7000lbs which includes 1531lbs of payload. And you will use all that payload with family and whatever gets loaded in the vehicle. GCVWR of truck and trailer is 15000lbs which makes tow rating at only 8000lbs. All people see in commercials is that higher number.

[4kids2dogs&RV]

Rrizz you must have been reading my mind, I had the same thoughts on "buyer beware" and the additional associated costs. Didnt think of the 3rd party sales though, good point.
Even noobs need to know how to read that sticker on the door frame.

660catman, sounds like you may be over weight. The manufactures weight rating in the manual is probably a generic value, you need to look at the label on your door frame. A 4WD 1500 may not have as large a payload capacity as you think it should. Doesn't mean it's wrong. Each and every option item on your vehicle reduces you payload capacity as well as tow weight capacity. When you watch the commercials, look at the really small print, it's usually for a stripped down 4x2, long bed with basic trim package.

[660catman]

Originally Posted by 4kids2dogs&RV

660catman, sounds like you may be over weight. The manufactures weight rating in the manual is probably a generic value, you need to look at the label on your door frame. A 4WD 1500 may not have as large a payload capacity as you think it should. Doesn't mean it's wrong. Each and every option item on your vehicle reduces you payload capacity as well as tow weight capacity. When you watch the commercials, look at the really small print, it's usually for a stripped down 4x2, long bed with basic trim package.

Manual shows specific truck configuration with engine, diff ratio and cooling packages making the biggest difference. I have full tow package with K5L cooling package. I have added LT rated tires which do reduce payload slightly due to being a heavier tire.
Payload and GVW numbers are directly off sticker. I have scaled my rig loaded with usual items and people. I’m at 13,400 GCVWR. Made a 2500 mile round trip to Yellowstone and Black Hills last year. Hardest part of trip was leaving Jackson Hole east to Casper, Wyoming. It was quite the climb.

My point was the unrealistic 9500lb rating. It doesn’t take into consideration a loaded truck, which it should.

[TKCameo]

As a brand new owner and total newbie to the RV and towing world, I have to agree with everyone. I dont want a pat on the head or anything, but I actually did to a TON of research about the trailers and trucks before I ever bought. Forums, three books not sponsored by anyone, youtube, shows, friends, dealer visits, etc. I learned like with most things there are alot of opinions on things, but when it comes to the math and calculations for the weight and tow limits, etc., it is not subject to opinions. I have a career that requires very careful weight and balance calculations and weight limitations with the equipment I use so I figured there were some important things about all this and holy cow, was I right. I had NO idea how complicated and interwoven things were. I consider myself average intelligence and I admit, it took me a LONG time to finally figure all this out. It wasnt until I ran across a you tube video of someone who finally explained clear as can be that it finally sunk in. I did my research for the trailer I wanted THEN bought a truck that could pull it safely. Ive been to the scales empty and loaded for my "normal trip". I check the torque on the tires, the pressures on my truck and trailer, bought a TPM and follow the speed limit (or less if need be).

Im a big believer in safety first and this is not exception. I am far from experienced or qualified to teach anyone anything, but the people Ive met at work that are thinking about getting a trailer or fifth wheel, I spend time telling them what I learned and dont trust any salesman. I had a guy tell me that no problem the Ford 150 could pull the 13,000# 5th wheel I was looking at when I was just browsing different trucks. He said it might be a little slow going up hills but no problem. Sign here before it gets sold lol

Anyway, thanks for the post on this, because now even as new as I am, I am seeing the things you described on the road and I move over a couple lanes and pass them

I appreciate the info and people on this site who are informative and kind in replies. I am a member of some forums where the experienced guys tend to belittle or put guys like me down for asking "stupid" questions which I think hinders learning and it tends to be the same people posting over and over because anyone else doesnt want a tongue lashing.

So thank you all for your help
Tim

[dagst1]

The way i see it the liability issue would be unenforceable. Unless the conversation is recorded it becomes a "He said she said" situation. And lets face it if the salesman will tell you that you can pull a 38 ft camper with your S10 then they would also say they told the buyer they should not pull it with that tow vehicle but the buyer insisted on buying it.

We went camping over the holiday weekend and some people should attend driving school. Just because your truck will pull your camper 75 mph + does not mean it is safe to do so. Thankfully the folks that passed us and pulled into our lane and lost it did not turn over in the ditch they went into. When you have NO sway control or bars on your equalizer hitch you are just asking for trouble. They may not care but i do.

Sitting behind the wheel of loads close to 80,000# for over 30+ years i have seen alot. You can just tell the "seasoned " from the rookies.

Back to the salesman selling campers that are toooo big for the truck. They would not have a job very long telling buyers that had just spent X on a new camper but now they need a new truck to tow it or that that mega camper is too big for there truck they should get a smaller one. Its not right but that's the way it goes.

I also think that factory tow ratings are a joke. Buy this brand truck. It has the highest rating in its class. That rating is for a 2 wheel drive single cab short bed truck because it weighs the least so more room for a higher tow rating. Add any options and the tow rating goes down because the truck now weighs more. Then add in the "soft ride springs" so the truck will ride more like a car. Then whey you hook up the rear squats bad. Just look at all the "helper" systems on the market.


DISCLAIMER: These are just my opinions - the ramblings of a old man. And no animal's were harmed while writing this!

[Lloyd]

Originally Posted by TKCameo

As a brand new owner and total newbie to the RV and towing world, I have to agree with everyone. I dont want a pat on the head or anything, but I actually did to a TON of research about the trailers and trucks before I ever bought. Forums, three books not sponsored by anyone, youtube, shows, friends, dealer visits, etc. I learned like with most things there are alot of opinions on things, but when it comes to the math and calculations for the weight and tow limits, etc., it is not subject to opinions. I have a career that requires very careful weight and balance calculations and weight limitations with the equipment I use so I figured there were some important things about all this and holy cow, was I right. I had NO idea how complicated and interwoven things were. I consider myself average intelligence and I admit, it took me a LONG time to finally figure all this out. It wasnt until I ran across a you tube video of someone who finally explained clear as can be that it finally sunk in. I did my research for the trailer I wanted THEN bought a truck that could pull it safely. Ive been to the scales empty and loaded for my "normal trip". I check the torque on the tires, the pressures on my truck and trailer, bought a TPM and follow the speed limit (or less if need be).

Im a big believer in safety first and this is not exception. I am far from experienced or qualified to teach anyone anything, but the people Ive met at work that are thinking about getting a trailer or fifth wheel, I spend time telling them what I learned and dont trust any salesman. I had a guy tell me that no problem the Ford 150 could pull the 13,000# 5th wheel I was looking at when I was just browsing different trucks. He said it might be a little slow going up hills but no problem. Sign here before it gets sold lol

Anyway, thanks for the post on this, because now even as new as I am, I am seeing the things you described on the road and I move over a couple lanes and pass them

I appreciate the info and people on this site who are informative and kind in replies. I am a member of some forums where the experienced guys tend to belittle or put guys like me down for asking "stupid" questions which I think hinders learning and it tends to be the same people posting over and over because anyone else doesnt want a tongue lashing.

So thank you all for your help
Tim

Good post Tim.
It's nice to hear from a new member who has taken the time to do his home work before purchasing.
Maybe this thread and your post will prompt other would be buyers to also do their home work.

[DOUGandNIKI]

Hello everyone...first day here and I'm going stick my foot in the water.

When I'm not busy being on YouTube, I own an insurance agency so I know the answer to this one! It a little varies by venue but for the most part the answer will be depends...

If the dealer portray's themselves as an expert and really investigates the tow vehicle and then makes a grossly negligent recommendation then of course there will be liability if there is an accident due to the over loading situation.

On the other hand...the dealer we just bought our new 291RK from assumed we had a max towing package on our Chevy Tahoe and said it will all be fine, don't worry. But, we didn't give him the year, make, model, or really ask him in any detail and he gave us a generic answer and push to close the deal because my wife knows we are right at the very edge of OK because we did our research ahead of time. I remained silent as I didn't want the deal skewed if she got nervous but, it would be hard to find him negligent for his bad advice as he really didn't put himself out there as an expert or fully informed.

Make sense? Unfortunately liability is normally full of thousands of depends and what/if's.

Assuming I've given you an interesting answer..please come to our YouTube channel, check out our new rig and subscribe so you can see out adventures.

[Lloyd]

I have a little background in the insurance business myself.
I believe that "verbal" is sometimes taken the same as a written statement in a court of law.

[mark5w]

In that case Lloyd, advise the salesman that you are recording the "Deal".


Then see what he states about the Truck/Rv.