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Old 03-09-2015, 01:57 PM   #41
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Sorry, I deleted my post. Johnboytoo was referring to a long disertation where I got up on my soapbox. I have been trying to avoid that lately. :-)

I have a bad attitude about businesses that have been run into the ground because of too much focus on profit and not enough on customer satisfaction, product quality and employee satisfaction and monetary reward for all.

I liked it and agreed with every word !!! Typically I quote what I'm referring to... but didn't this time
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Old 03-09-2015, 02:24 PM   #42
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Basically I said that the problems started at the top and have to be fixed from the top. All the focus on the guys at the bottom does no good unless the attitudes, practices and procedures that caused the problems to begin with are dealt with.

After having spent over 30 years working in manufacturing and financial industries, from being in the factory to upper level technical support, I have come to recognize that just like water, it all runs down hill.

The problems with quality will never get fixed until the gentleman you are all referring to is willing to admit that he and all his team, ALL OF HIS TEAM, INCLUDING HIMSELF, are part of the problem. Individual efforts cannot fix their issues. The business has to be willing to share in the pain and equally share in the reward to fix it.

They will never pull out of the spiral unless they return to the values of a superior product, superior customer satisfaction THE FIRST TIME AROUND and superior employee moral which translates into superior working conditions and compensation for a job well done.

Unfortunately the MBAs running the companies now focus way too much on ROI (return on investment) and share holder value at all costs.
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Old 03-09-2015, 06:20 PM   #43
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When we were talking to Andy Cripe (president of Crossroads) at the Tampa RV show, the subject of quality came up. Andy is working hard to try to improve the quality of the product, and lamented (about the workers) "If I could only find a way to make them care".

We care about the company and the products, and to that end, I am preparing a document to give to Andy the next time we see him (at the factory rally). I am collecting a list of suggestions, ideas, etc. to help improve the product quality. We have come up with several suggestions already, and we got some good ones from a friend who is retired from management in the auto industry.

If anyone has any suggestions or ideas to add to the list, that would be great.
First stop wining about your employees or find another job.

Spend a week on the factory floor. Watch how the units are built. He must take breaks with the workers each day.

Take one of the products out for a camping trip - at least 500 miles from home. He must tow it with his own tow vehicle. If he if does not have a tow vehicle he needs to purchase one or lease one.

He can not take anyone from the factory with him. If there are any issues with the RV then he has to make an appointment with a local RV dealer without giving details as to who he is. He should ask the service shop about the quality of the product and the support they get from the factory. He can not take any vacations until the unit is repaired and used on another camping trip.

He must keep and use the RV for at least one year and take a minimum of 6 camping trips - all 200 to 500 miles away from home. All repairs must be done at a local RV dealer.

In other words walk in the shoes of the folks that built them and the shoes of us that own their products.

Again if he not willing to do any of the above - resign and find a real job that he is qualified for.
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Old 03-09-2015, 07:35 PM   #44
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Dr Cook, Bob, and Tommy are on to something here. It all starts at top. True in any business. **** rolls down hill. Also true in any business. Management has to care. If workers are getting paid by the piece that is fine but put in place an inspection process where if not up to specification then you are not paid for that unit. Management has to want/insist on quality or it will not happen. If management "Cares" then the guy/gal on the line will "Care" too.
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Old 03-10-2015, 08:42 AM   #45
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Dr Cook, etc etc
thanks for the compliment, but dr = david richard, most folks just call me Dave. Feel free to also

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If workers are getting paid by the piece that is fine but put in place an inspection process where if not up to specification then you are not paid for that unit.
In order for this to work, the supply chain has to be dealt with also. If a worker is given defective/substandard parts to begin with and is penalized monetarily for either letting it go through or for not producing X amount of units, then the employee who cares simply moves on and the business goes right back to where it was.

our 2010 had a defective trim board on the slide. the trim at that time was paper covered composite, to be blunt, saw dust glued together to form a board and covered with paper that had wood grain printed on it. the saw dust was crumbling.

is this the worker's fault that assembled it, frankly no, it is the business' fault for specifying the cheapest possible material it could find and not penalizing the supplier for faulty products. should the worker's not make any money for this ? no, if they would have had a good board to begin with there would not have been an issue.

now I realize that defects happen in manufacturing, it is inevitable, but you have to look at the total number of units (whether it be boards, windows, RV's etc) to see the percentage of defects. if 1 in 10 is rejected due to defective materials, that is more alarming than say 1 in 1,000 etc.

this whole process of pulling a business out of a death spiral is hard and painful and takes commitment.

it also hurts profit. another issue that must be considered is whether the tail that wags this dog is will to let profits slide in order to increase future profits. from my experience most businesses won't take the long view.
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Old 03-10-2015, 09:11 AM   #46
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Dave, I am glad to see another proponent of TQM. It is a never complete, neverending process. Every improvement can cause another area to be improved upon.
I think Lexus uses a statement to the effect "relentless persuit of perfection", not sure that is a direct quote but close.
Soap box back to you,
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Old 03-10-2015, 09:41 AM   #47
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In order to fully understand the issue, we also have to take into account the total budget of the business. What do I mean by total budget ? Wages, utilities, taxes, maintenance of the facilities. Those are costs before any raw materials are purchased. Then you have to take into account the total number of expected units built for a year. Then add up the costs of the materials to build X amount of units. Then figure out how much money will be made for selling X amount of units. Hopefully it will be on the positive side.

In an industry that is functioning in a relatively small percentage of the population, there are only so many units to be sold industry wide. If increasing quality shifts too much into the red, the business will be shut down as you can only pass on so much of the costs to the consumer before they will balk and keep what they have or simply do without.

In our case, if we had not bought a year old (last yr's model, ie: was never titled) unit at the 1/3 off MSRP price that we did, we would not have bought. MSRP was out of reach of us. We were able to justify what we did pay budget wise, even though it was a bit more than the one we traded in. The extras amenities (slide, extra room) that we got was worth more to us than the extra cost.

If the cost of quality had pushed MSRP even higher, which would have increased the cost we would have had to pay, we would still own the old unit.

Will the guy at the top take a pay cut, say 10% and then cut everyone's pay to help fund quality improvements ? In every company there is a small amount of people that can afford a 10% (or x percent, just fill in the blank) pay cut without affecting their standard of living. Cut the pay of the average wage earner and they are looking for a job, resenting the situation, getting even with the company, etc.

So you have to look for efficiency in other areas. The easiest is to simply cheapen down on the components, with the end result being threads/discussions like this and eventually a disappearance from the market. The others are hard. Decrease the costs by working out ways to get the units built to higher standard, quicker. Better jigs, fixtures, tools, machines etc once again cost money. Education. Supply line.

You have to look at the big picture from beginning to end, not just the few minutes of the credits.

It is a very complicated situation to deal with that will take a person of great talent and support to fix.
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Old 03-10-2015, 09:42 AM   #48
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having been a 5 9's guy for a while and TQM trained, etc...

All those names are cute but as said, the bottom line is caring about your work and theirs - way back when, it was easy to identify the 'craftsman', now there is so much bs, smoke and mirrors - you can't....

but the proof is in the ownership of it...
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Old 03-10-2015, 10:09 AM   #49
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but the proof is in the ownership of it...
that is more than just a figure of speech. if all parties involved are invested in the success of the business they can succeed.

Crossroads reputation was built on word of mouth. We bought ours because of the feedback from prior owners on this and other forums. Unfortunately, I think we bought on the cusp of the quality decline which was also heading into the whole financial debacle in the country which still has reverberations to this day.

Their reputation is going to be built back by word of mouth also and the actions of their staff. Make the improvements. Document the improvements. Care about every facet of the business. Remember when the website was not quite up to snuff after a redesign ? You could tell the corporate attitude at that time do the fact they didn't even care that they "looked nice when they went out the door" to meet the public if you understand what I mean.

Take people on tours of the factory. Show them the commitment the company has to once again being a standard against what others are measured.

Airstream is building them as fast as they can and is having to add on to their factory as they can't build enough. There is a 57 yr old Airstream sitting next to my garage that I found for my brother and sister in law. Do we think our units are going to be worth restoring in 57 yrs?

They have to take the long view in my opinion.
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Old 03-10-2015, 03:46 PM   #50
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Airstream is building them as fast as they can and is having to add on to their factory as they can't build enough. There is a 57 yr old Airstream sitting next to my garage that I found for my brother and sister in law. Do we think our units are going to be worth restoring in 57 yrs?

.
I believe Airstream and Crossroads are both owned by Thor. So, Andy Cripe only has to look as far as a sister company to get some good ideas.
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Old 03-10-2015, 04:47 PM   #51
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I am going to have to Stand up a little bit for Andy. When he took over CrossRoads it was a real mess the previous Crew were the ones who made the manufacturing every thing and no Quality control. if you go back to this time frame. and see the complaints on the 2012 and 2013 models were unreal. I hated to come on to this forum. Over the last two years he has seen the quality improve by a lot. It is not perfect never can be with the standards of the RV Industry. But as said the Quality starts at the top goes through purchasing and than engineering . When they went from a two year warranty to a one year Warranty, it was not CrossRoads who wanted it. It was their dealers at the time. They wanted to be able to charge for repairs that second Year (CW) was the big player in this mess. But having being involved in Quality SPC as a VP I had to lead the way. One time we were having a major problem with a part many hours many sleepless nights. I had several Engineers in the floor supervisors, maintaince, trying to fiqure out what was going on. the little cleanup guy Chad was there also.I said to him I hope to hget this cleaned up so you will not have to work so hard (Note his elevator did not go all the way up.) He said oh this is w hat is causing the mess and pointed out some thing. That was it lot of top paid talent could not see the tree but he did. Moral for quality bring everyone aboard.
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Old 03-10-2015, 04:59 PM   #52
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Just as I said in one of my earlier posts....Yes Airstream is building TT's at break neck pace...Why is that because of the quality, and design of their campers...Also as I said earlier "the more you pay the more quality you get"...Airstream TT's are very expensive...
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Old 03-10-2015, 06:50 PM   #53
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I looked at several TT before I bought. I looked at TT that were comparable in price. You can't compare to "high end" unless that is your market. I looked at Jayco, the Keystone Passport and Bullet, a couple of others, than found the CR ST. It just had more amenities and was on par with what I found in the Passport. I was leaning towards the Passport before finding the ST. The fit and finish was about the same but with the extras and a bit lower price I went with CR. I spent time on their forums too and I know that issues and complaints are discussed there too.
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Old 03-11-2015, 04:39 AM   #54
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While we pile it on Crossroads for quality, there is another dimension to this. 5 years ago gas was hitting $5.00 gallon. I believe thats part of the pain we're feeling now. All the manufacturers had to come up with lighter trailers. I think thats part of the the cheapness we're seeing now, especially in our utralites.
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Old 03-11-2015, 06:10 AM   #55
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While we pile it on Crossroads for quality, there is another dimension to this. 5 years ago gas was hitting $5.00 gallon. I believe thats part of the pain we're feeling now. All the manufacturers had to come up with lighter trailers. I think thats part of the the cheapness we're seeing now, especially in our utralites.
While "liteness" is a design issue, it doesn't explain nor justify poor quality in assembly. From what I have seen, most of the RV industry issues are associated with assembly, not the products (A/C, Stove, Refrig, etc.). Setting expectations for quality, and training staff how to achieve it, in conjunction with allowing enough time to execute, and a Quality Control check before unit leaves the plant will go a long way. You don't have to institute a "Lean Six Sigma" quality system to achieve better quality.
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