Neutral ground bond problem?

Papa-T · 05-10-2017, 12:42 PM

So I have a Progressive Model EMS-PT50C surge protector that I purchased last year for my new camper. I have a Honda 2000 generator with a 30 Amp female plug. Last year I made a neutral ground bond plug to use with my generator but I never checked it with the surge protector and the generator. So today I decided to check things out because we're planning a trip with dry camping. When I started the generator and plugged the surge protector in it of course gave an E2-Open ground message. I then plugged in my N-G plug into one of the 110 outlets on the generator and then it gave me an E1-Reverse polarity message. When I made the N-G plug I jumped a wire from the silver screw to the green screw which I thought was right. The only other screw I have is a black screw. Any thoughts?

Papa-T · 05-10-2017, 12:57 PM

Ok Update: So I thought about the reverse polarity message for a few minutes and I decided to jump the wire from green screw to black screw which would in my little mind be the reverse???? Bingo; now giving me a E-0 Normal operation message. I love it when a plan comes together.

Wildasindrive · 05-10-2017, 01:15 PM

Ouch!,
Just as a thought, you should not be able to hook a ground wire to the hot or black wire in the circuit. You have a polarity issue either in the generator or the RV, OR the extension cord you are using.

On a normal circuit you would have had sparks flying while grounding that black wire.

For your safety and others you need to find out where that polarity is changing because if you or someone else is working on your unit with the polarity changed in the area where it is reversed, and they assume the white wire is common you will have a huge surprise, a mad repair person or even worse someone who is electrocuted.

Papa-T · 05-10-2017, 01:39 PM

The surge protector works in normal operations E-0 when hooked to regular power and when camper is plugged in. And I have use my generators (Two 2000 hondas with the parallel kit) for years on other units. And the surge protector is showing E-0 Normal operation with the Neutral ground bond plug now when powered by either separate or both of my generators powering the unit through the surge protector.

Wildasindrive · 05-10-2017, 03:09 PM

I understand, and agree it would work, however somewhere in your system you have a black going to a white wire. They are color coded for a reason, as the black wire is the load and the white common. You may have a plug or socket miss wired and that is causing the issue. When you suggested you grounded the black wire, I expected for you to say you had sparks flying everywhere. You should have. That is why I am saying you have polarity mixed. By that I mean you have a black wire going to a white wire than going to a black wire again. or visa versa.
Again this is not an issue with usability.

If you have a black wire in your system that is now acting as a neutral or common, it will work and your surge will be okay with that because it does not know color, but potential in the wires. The issue here is that a service tech or someone who does not know the polarity is changed along the way may become injured not knowing this.

Its like putting your car in drive and having it go backwards. No one knows that but you or someone who you have told.
Same in the electrical world. Black is load and white common. You can stick a white wire to ground all day, but put a black wire to ground and you have sparks.

I am certainly not trying to give you a hard time or cause worry, but when you ever get service done on your RV while the generator is connected, please tell the tech so he knows and will not get shocked.

harley · 05-10-2017, 03:29 PM

I remember recently reading about doing that bonding when running off genny. Cannot recall where.

Papa-T · 05-10-2017, 04:28 PM

Oh I don't think your trying to give me a hard time I was just explaining what I had done. I was just wondering if it's possible that the black and silver screw had been switched at some time. I didn't buy this plug I had picked it up at a yard sale somewhere just for this purpose so I don't know what has been done to it.

Jeffur · 05-10-2017, 06:57 PM

More than likely the generator has a floating ground and is not bonded / connected to the neutral (like your RV).
Be advised - you could blow fridges and solid state devices if you cross the hot leads / reverse the leads.

Papa-T · 05-10-2017, 07:21 PM

Ok I'm not trying to sound like an a__ or anything but isn't that what the surge protector is for; to protect the camper from surges, open grounds, and if it's checking everything and showing a message E-0 (Normal Operation) I should be all good. At least that's how it's suppose to work. Right?

MartyinSC · 05-10-2017, 07:39 PM

Just look at the 120 volt prongs on the plug. Look closely at the two straight slots. The TALLER (or wider) prong is the neutral, and that's what should be tied to ground. If you're looking at an outlet, it's on the left when the ground is on the bottom. Be careful, when you are looking at a plug, head-on, you're looking at a reverse image. Regardless, the bigger (taller) prong is neutral.

Papa-T · 05-10-2017, 07:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MartyinSC

Just look at the 120 volt prongs on the plug. Look closely at the two straight slots. The TALLER (or wider) prong is the neutral, and that's what should be tied to ground. If you're looking at an outlet, it's on the left when the ground is on the bottom. Be careful, when you are looking at a plug, head-on, you're looking at a reverse image. Regardless, the bigger (taller) prong is neutral.

Ok Marty going by the ground on the bottom when plugged into an outlet then the wire is jumped to the one on the right instead of the left. The one on the left is the silver screw. So why does it work with the generator and surge protector? So is Wildasindrive correct that I will be fine as long as Tech isn't working on wiring while plugged into generators? And since the surge protector works fine when plugged into regular power and was showing open ground when plugged into generators before I plugged in the N-G plug when crossed to silver screw and then it showed reverse polarity. I'm confused.

MartyinSC · 05-10-2017, 08:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Papa-T

Ok Marty going by the ground on the bottom when plugged into an outlet then the wire is jumped to the one on the right instead of the left. The one on the left is the silver screw. So why does it work with the generator and surge protector? So is Wildasindrive correct that I will be fine as long as Tech isn't working on wiring while plugged into generators?

Papa T, I don't know why your protection system is acting the way it does, but the right side (smaller) prong is definitely the hot side. I would remove the plug. Doing so on a generator, which is otherwise not grounded, and the camper is not grounded, is kind of like the old car battery system when some had positive grounds. (very few). Within the auto, it didn't make any difference, back when there were just bulbs, buzzers, etc. When electronics came along, it made a difference.
But like Wildasindrive says, it does, literally, change the polarity of everything, and somebody could get hurt making a wrong assumption. Now, as to why your protection is working "backwards," you might call them, or check the wiring on that, too. While you're at it, check the polarity of your shore power plug also. In the meantime, a floating ground is better than a wrong ground.

Papa-T · 05-10-2017, 08:27 PM

Well when plugged into the shore power the surge protector shows all working normal. No open ground or reverse polarity. I did call progressive today and the guy said he didn't know why it was showing reverse polarity when I had it jumped from green to silver screw but said they sell a generator plug which is the N-G bond. $18 I've never had any issues with the generators but is it possible that the outlet on the generator I plugged the N-G plug into is somehow reversed?

MartyinSC · 05-10-2017, 08:59 PM

In a true, simple generator, there really is no hot or neutral. Both are leads from a coil, where the voltage is generated. Assigning one side as "hot," and the other "neutral," is arbitrary. HOWEVER, real life is often different. I don't know much about the internals of a Honda, and if they did anything to condition the output, even as much as a filter, it could disrupt the "theoretical." Since the progressive protector does seem to be doing its analysis correctly, and since all works fine on house/campsite wiring, then the logical culprit is the generator. You can ask a Honda repair shop, or you can try other people's generators. It certainly is an interesting problem, and we'll be glad to hear when you get it resolved.

Russb · 05-10-2017, 09:13 PM

Portable Inverter Generator Neutral Ground Bonding Plug Honda Yamaha

Maybe this link will help explain the issue.

Papa-T · 05-10-2017, 09:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Russb

Portable Inverter Generator Neutral Ground Bonding Plug Honda Yamaha

Maybe this link will help explain the issue.

Yea I have read the above link as well as others and I understand the N-G bond. But still trying to figure out my problem. Has to be the generators or maybe the (parallel kit). Not sure.

MartyinSC · 05-10-2017, 09:29 PM

Great resource, Russb! Thanks! PapaT, from the beginning, you've referred to yours as a generator. Is it, in fact, an inverter? If it is, that does change everything, in that the output is controlled by electronics.

Wildasindrive · 05-11-2017, 06:40 AM

Are the plus ends on the parallel kit molded or can they come apart? If they are molded, swap the wires in the generator and also the ground wire to the white wire side.
This should fix it.

If the kit wires have screwed on caps than you have to look further.

Papa-T · 05-11-2017, 07:00 AM

I was lying in bed last night racking my brain trying to figure this out and I thought about the parallel kit and the wires also. The parallel kit is mounted to one of the Honda 2000's and there's two wires that plug into that generator (both the same color on the end) and then there's a yellow ground that has to be attached under a screw, then another same long wrapped three wire that goes to the other generator with the same two wires (same color) that plugs into the other generator with an additional yellow ground wire that you have to also attach under a ground screw. The wires are not suppose to be parallel sensitive and can be plugged in any way according to hookup directions. I will try reversing these today and maybe hooking up the surge protector to the generators separate without the parallel kit attatched. I'll let you know my findings. My parallel kit looks like this one pictured.

Wildasindrive · 05-11-2017, 08:46 AM

Okay great. Make sure the two wires from the parallel kit are plugged into the same outlet holes on both generators. The yellow green wire is ground.
I also agree with you using one generator at a time to test this. I think you are on the right track.

I would think this is a very easy fix.

You may also like: