Gorilla Cage Being Phased Out?

[Tom Holsinger]

That's how I see it. They'll use the same welding techniques, done by the same poorly trained, high-turnover, welders everyone else uses. Much of the construction advantage Crossroads products used to have is gone.

Originally Posted by mwebber78

No offense but I just can't see the RV business investing in the training needed and giving the welder time to properly weld.

[Lloyd]

I think everybody should quit bad mouthing. Give them a chance for crying out loud! If it works out for the better that will be great. If it doesn't, then they will probably try something else.
Anyway, the way I see it, if you don't own a CR product, what in the hell are you in here blowing smoke for?

[gball]

Well said Old Farmer.

[ClassicHammond]

So based on what I read here.....there must not be any brands I could buy. They are all welded somewhere. Now lets talk about water pipes. Who glues them up? Poorly trained, high turnover gluers? LOL

Guess I'm with Old Farmer



Looks I'll be buying a Redwood when I hit the road full time.....And they can weld my Gorilla Cage

[Lstreutker]

We had another brand that had a welded aluminum framework and during a wind storm a large maple 24 inch at baselanded on it, it totaled it but you could still open the door and tow it, it held up better than our neighbors stick built house, so I would give crossroads the chance. our 2007 30sk replaced that other brand

[HEH458]

Well, it does throw out the claim (aka sales pitch)about screwed and glued being a "BETTER" design because it allows flexing like in aircrafts.

[drcook]

theoretically a welded cage should be stiffer than a bolted cage after time has gone by due to bolts loosening up. and if the bolts are mild steel instead of stainless, corrosion issues will come into play especially in the northern areas.



there is a reason why race car roll cages are welded and not screwed together.



the key is done properly. if they hire and retain qualified welders all will be ok, or maybe even great. if they use welders that don't know how to get penetration, or on the converse, burn and crystallize the metal, it could bea disaster



we HAD a General Motors supplied bumper hitch, rated well in excess of our trailer weight, in fact GM rated it as much as the very heavy duty Reese on the truck now. To make a long story short, it was welded by south of the border welders. Out on RV.NET I was reading about GM oem hitches failing and got the bug to replace ours. It had at least one cracked weld that I saw and the heaviest trailer ever behind the truck since it was new weighed a whopping 5180 lbs.



in all the shops that I worked at when I was younger, the welders had to be certified and demonstrate profiency before welding on anything that really mattered. now so many are going to CNC controlled welding machines or robots.



so in an nutshell, just because their welded is not a cause for alarm

[Dayle1]

Originally Posted by HEH458

Well, it does throw out the claim (aka sales pitch)Â*about screwed and glued being a "BETTER" design because it allows flexing like in aircrafts.

I don't think that the claim is negated, just that CR will now be just like everyone else with a welded frame, no better and hopefully no worse. Also, don't know which method really is better, but there are at least some reports from owners that have experienced broken welds in the aluminum superstructure. Can't recall any reports of similiar problems with screwed and glued construction, but then maybe the number of units are so much smaller.

[Tom Holsinger]

A welded aluminum cage is better than no cage at all. The problem with welding here is its lack of consistent quality when done by the usual high turnover rate welders employed by all RV manufacturers. The higher-end manufacturers deal with this by spending more money on quality control, aka inspectors.





A recent post on RV.net here - http://www.rv.net/forum/index.cfm/fuseaction/thread/tid/25341809.cfm



shows that Carriage 5th wheels with welded aluminum frames are incredibly sturdy:



"While in South Fork Colorado, a couple came in from Amarillo TX. They were showing pictures to the rv dealer. They had bought a Carriage trailer from this dealer, and while traveling I 40 last spring the wind guests blew the rig over. Once it was upright, the trailer was still intact and the slides would come in and out. Course it was totaled, but it did not fall all to pieces. I can't remember what they said about the frame, but the trailer is built better then anything I ever owned."



But I doubt Crossroads could survive if it spent as much money on inspection per unit for its Cruisers and Rushmores as Carriage does on its high-end 5th wheels.



drcook,



Fully computer-controlled automated welding systems inherently produce more consistent-quality welds than the high turnover human welders working for RV manufacturers. The problem is that such systems tend to be really expensive, and make financial sense only for big production runs of single models like those found in the car and truck industries. The production runs of RV models just haven't been large enough to justify fully computer-controlled welding systems.



Hopefully the cost of those will come down enough for Crossroads to use those in making Cruisers and Rushmores. I doubt that has happened yet, because Crossoroads would have made a public relations selling point about it, to justify changing from screw & glue of its aluminum cages.



More likely Crossroads is switching to a semi-automated welding system whereby one human "welder" without much experience controls several welding machines at once, which is a great way to reduce costs but creates its own quality control issues.

[drcook]

I understand about the cost of robotics and that the amount of rigs being built by Crossroads wouldn't justify the investment in such as you do need a high unit count to pay back the cost of the equipment and the time spent to program them. Once you buy the equipment, you either have to hire someone to program it, or send someone to school to learn how to, and then deal with the learning curve until they become proficient.

It took me a while to learn to program CNC machines and it took me a while to learn to program mainframes and pc's so I do have a basis of understanding. I just threw out the statement that a lot of mfg'ers go to CNC based welding because of the inherent problems with employing human beings to do the welding.



What I would be curious to learn is if they are going to do full seam welding or spot welding or simply small areas. It takes more time to do full seam welding.



There has got to be some reason that they are not disclosing for them to change a construction method inmid-stream. It could be economic, it could be to be perceived in the market place to be equal to their competitors that are doing weld frames, it could be that there is a problem that they are having to deal with.



Edited by: drcook

[spinella]

coming in onthis one late....whats a gorilla cage?

[seabee]

the aluminum side frames.

[spinella]

thanks walt....i'm thinking its a safe spot to keep the mother in law Edited by: spinella

[Tom Holsinger]

Originally Posted by spinella

coming in onthis one late....whats a gorilla cage?

spinella,



The "gorilla cage" consists of a box frame (floor, walls, roof) which in Crossroads' case, and that of high-end 5th wheel manufacturer Carriage, includes a LOT of vertical wall "struts", all bound together with welds/bolts/glue, etc. Most RV manufacturers have very few vertical structural members in the walls of their structures. Crossroads and Carriage are notable exceptions, and this makes their 5th wheels much stronger than the rest. Look at my previous post with someone marveling over the fact that a Carriage 5th wheel's slides still worked afer the sucker blew over in a wind gust.



This discussion concerns a change in the means Crossroads used to bindthe alumimun cage members together. It used to do so with a lot of bolts and screws, and some welding. Now it is going to welding throughout.There isn't much strength & durability difference between them when the welding is done properly, but it is difficult to do the welding properly, and this is particularly the case with a poorly trained, high-turnover rate, labor force. The motor vehicle industry solved this consistent qualty welding problem with fully computerized automated welding systems, but those are still too expensive for the RV industry with its really low production runs per model.

[calliopeguy]

When describing the attributes of the Gorilla cage I think it also worth while to mention that all the studs are 16" O. C. This allows the owner tohang towel bars, coat racks, pictures, etc.directly onto a stud instead of 1/8" (or less) luan and styrofoam. This construction also allows all electrical boxes to be mounted on the outside walls where they belong rather than in the cabinets, under the cabinets, on the side of the cabinets, etc. Also delamination isnot a major concern with the Gorilla frame.
If Crossroads would give up the Gorilla frame they would just be another entrywith the rest of the "delaminators" and I'm afraid the unemployment figures would rise in that community.

[spinella]

great info....thank you guys.

[hhh]

I took the factory tour. The frames seams are fully welded. The Zinger line is going to laminated construction.

[fixit5561]

hhh dont take this personal but I specifically asked the rep if they were full welds all the way around and he told me no they were only welded on 1 side. Maybe you were thinking that he said it was fully welded 1 side?



When I looked at the frames outside they were spot welded on 1 side and then welded the width ofonly along 1 side. So 1 side is spot welded, then the opposite side runs a weld the width of the tube and the other two sides have no weld on them.

[Tom Holsinger]

Which is why a welded cage frame is much preferable to not having any cage frame.

Originally Posted by calliopeguy

... I think it also worth while to mention that all the studs are 16" O. C. This allows the owner tohang towel bars, coat racks, pictures, etc.directly onto a stud instead of 1/8" (or less) luan and styrofoam. This construction also allows all electrical boxes to be mounted on the outside walls where they belong rather than in the cabinets, under the cabinets, on the side of the cabinets, etc.

[Hunter11]

Until you have heard it straight from the horse's mouth you are all just speculating on why this change was made and how the process will work.