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Old 10-24-2022, 04:26 PM   #1
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Routing of TV wiring to charge RV batteries?

Over the past 3 days of driving it appears my tow vehicle isn't able to charge my lead acid batteries.

I have 14.35 volts between pins 1 & 4 of the 7 pin at the back of the truck
The batteries (2) are slightly discharged and read 12.35v
When connected to tow vehicle the batteries read 12.35v.

When I connect to shore power (50 amp) the batteries read 13.65v. Which tells me the converter is charging but the truck isn't charging/

My question is: Anybody know the routing of the wiring from pin 4 of the 7 pin until it actually reaches the batteries? It must go through a fuse or some other device and in my case isn't reaching the batteries.

We just set up camp in Mayhill, NM for three nights. Deer Springs RV Resort. This is the most beautiful RV site we've ever been to. Of course, it's Oct 24 and the leaves are turning. It was snowing a couple of hours ago but the low for the night should be 34 at the lowest.

thanks,
Dustin
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Old 10-24-2022, 05:03 PM   #2
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What is the voltage between pin 4 Battery + and pin 1 Battery - on the camper cord. plug?
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Old 10-24-2022, 06:42 PM   #3
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What is the voltage between pin 4 Battery + and pin 1 Battery - on the camper cord. plug?
I didn't pierce the insulation to find out, but I presume you're questioning if the power is getting thru the plug.

But, tomorrow, when it warms up I'll check it out.

Dustin
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Old 10-24-2022, 07:46 PM   #4
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No need to pierce the insulation just put one probe from your meter in 4 + and the other probe in 1- and that should give you battery voltage at the plug terminals. https://www.rvcamptravel.com/7-way-w...-trailer-plug/
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Old 10-24-2022, 08:06 PM   #5
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No need to pierce the insulation just put one probe from your meter in 4 + and the other probe in 1- and that should give you battery voltage at the plug terminals. https://www.rvcamptravel.com/7-way-w...-trailer-plug/
Ok, I see. I'll try that tomorrow. That makes sense if that plug runs direct to the battery.
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Old 10-25-2022, 06:32 AM   #6
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I don't think the light ga. wire that runs all the way from the alternator to the the plug,than another run of probably lighter ga. wire from the plug to the battery is able to handle keeping the battery charged.
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Old 10-25-2022, 02:47 PM   #7
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I don't think the light ga. wire that runs all the way from the alternator to the the plug,than another run of probably lighter ga. wire from the plug to the battery is able to handle keeping the battery charged.
You're right Lloyd, it's less than a trickle charger.
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Old 10-25-2022, 03:52 PM   #8
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Also the alternator will not put out more than the truck battery/ batteries need so along with wire size/length and alternator output it probably will not charge a drained battery but will top off a slightly drained one.

Although when dry camping we ran out of camper battery to the point of it would not run the landing gear so after plugging in the cord and letting it run for a while it did run the landing gear so we could hitch up.

One trick someone told me was to run the trucks A/C - Heater blower on high and turn the headlights to create a drain/load so the alternator will send more amps to the camper battery.
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Old 10-25-2022, 07:53 PM   #9
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I went fishing today when it warmed up, so just got around to testing the battery situation.

Over the past few days, according to my trailer LED battery condition lights, the charge has dropped to 1/3 of Full with the WFCO converter circuit breaker turned off. Also, with the converter circuit breather turned off my volt meter reads 12.9 volts between pins 1 & 4 of the trailer 7pin plug and 12.9 volts across the battery terminals.

With the WFCO converter circuit breather turned ON, the voltmeter reads 13.69 volts between pins 1 & 4 and across the battery terminals and the trailer LED lights show FULL charge.

According to the WFCO converter specs, the output to the batteries would read around 14.4 volts when charging.

When I turn the converter circuit breaker off the lights in the trailer dim a little and the slides and jacks have trouble operating. I'm pretty sure the batteries are not fully charged.

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Old 10-25-2022, 08:23 PM   #10
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Also, this morning I read a number of articles about how the tow vehicle supplies power to the 7pin via pins 1 & 4.

Apparently all (or nearly all) tow vehicles have a relay that is not energized when the truck ignition is turned off. When the ignition is turned on the relay is energized and supplies 12v to the trailer. From what I read, between the truck battery and the relay there's a 40 amp fuse.

I checked my truck and that's exactly the way it's wired including the 40 amp fuse. I also read numerous articles where individuals say the best you'll get out of the 7pin is 5 amps. Other's say you should be able to get 20 amps.

If you think about it, 14v times 20 amps is only 280 watts, so 14 gauge wire is sufficient to supply 20 amps. And, from looking at my truck and trailer I'd say that's about the size wire they've run.

So, the truck battery is used to charge the trailer battery and if/when the truck battery draws down the the alternator kicks in to recharge.

While I was typing this, I heard my WFCO converter fan turn on for about 30 seconds and then shut off. So right now, my best guess is my WFCO converter isn't working properly. In the past, when I turn on most of the lights in the trailer the convert fan kicks on and that's not happening now. So my real problem is most likely the converter.

So, something to investigate tomorrow.
Thanks for the feedback from everyone. If you have suggestions on troubleshooting the converter let me know. WFCO-9855 model.

Dustin
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Old 10-25-2022, 08:34 PM   #11
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According to WFCO Bulk 14.4 v/ Normal 13.6/ Trickle 13.2v Output during the 3 stages.


Battery voltage should be 12.6 or above for a full charge.

Just my opinion -- The numbers look good but I would have the battery load tested. The volts may be good but not under a load like running the slides.
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Old 10-25-2022, 08:44 PM   #12
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Here is a manual for the 9800 series deck mount converters.
https://wfcoelectronics.com/wp-conte...Manual-web.pdf
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Old 10-26-2022, 09:35 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toolman.dustin View Post
Also, this morning I read a number of articles about how the tow vehicle supplies power to the 7pin via pins 1 & 4.

Apparently all (or nearly all) tow vehicles have a relay that is not energized when the truck ignition is turned off. When the ignition is turned on the relay is energized and supplies 12v to the trailer. From what I read, between the truck battery and the relay there's a 40 amp fuse.

I checked my truck and that's exactly the way it's wired including the 40 amp fuse. I also read numerous articles where individuals say the best you'll get out of the 7pin is 5 amps. Other's say you should be able to get 20 amps.

If you think about it, 14v times 20 amps is only 280 watts, so 14 gauge wire is sufficient to supply 20 amps. And, from looking at my truck and trailer I'd say that's about the size wire they've run.

So, the truck battery is used to charge the trailer battery and if/when the truck battery draws down the the alternator kicks in to recharge.

While I was typing this, I heard my WFCO converter fan turn on for about 30 seconds and then shut off. So right now, my best guess is my WFCO converter isn't working properly. In the past, when I turn on most of the lights in the trailer the convert fan kicks on and that's not happening now. So my real problem is most likely the converter.

So, something to investigate tomorrow.
Thanks for the feedback from everyone. If you have suggestions on troubleshooting the converter let me know. WFCO-9855 model.

Dustin

I just helped a friend with his converter a couple of months ago. His was doing the exact same thing with the fan coming on for maybe 30 seconds. I talked to a dealer and he said unhook converter and hook up an automotive battery charger to the wires. If all works as it should, it’s the converter. He had issues with battery too. He ended up getting a new converter. He had a 9865 and replaced it with a 9855. As dagst1 said get your battery load tested. Volts may be good but may not have the full amps due to a dead cell or cells.
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Old 10-26-2022, 10:12 AM   #14
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Quote:
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Here is a manual for the 9800 series deck mount converters.
https://wfcoelectronics.com/wp-conte...Manual-web.pdf
Thanks for the manual. I looked all over and I couldn't find it.
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Old 10-26-2022, 10:42 AM   #15
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Apparently - I don't have a problem!

So, after reading and testing - I don't have a problem!

Every time I walk in the trailer I punch the button to see if the batteries are charged. I also check the fresh water tank level, because sometimes when I'm connected to city water, the fresh water tank fills itself. (I've replaced the check valve twice, but I now have a theory about why it fills itself. I'lll save that for another time.)

For the past 5 years the battery level LED has said fully charged. Now for the past 5 days, it reads 1/3 or 2/3 (with the converter breaker turned off). So, something has changed.

This morning I decided to verify the electrolyte level, and checked both batteries, all levels are full. I don't have a hydrometer so I'll check that some other time, but I did test the electrolyte levels in June and they indicated fully charged.

I did clean all the battery connections and terminals until they were shiny. I shut everything off in the trailer (that I can shut off) and clamped an amp meter on the battery terminals and with the batteries connected to the converter I measured -13.35 amps. I presume that is power going INTO the batteries from the converter. However, when I shut the converter breaker off I still measured -3.2 amps so that's confusing. I would have expected 0 or +3.2 amps if power was being drained.

There's a purple/white wire also connected to the batteries and it reads -4.7 amps all the time, so I suppose that's all the stuff that drains the batteries dead after 3 weeks with no shore power connected.

Finally, I pulled off a plastic cover at the front of the trailer near the batteries that all the wires run into. It's a junction with lots of wires and nuts. I wiggled all of them and one appeared a LITTLE lose so I tightened it.

My suspicion is, I don't think the converter ever goes into "bulk charge, 14.4v" mode, but stays in "absorption mode, 13.6v". I sent an email to WFCO tech support for more info. (Which I just go a reply from: Hi Dustin,
Your battery is fully charged at around 12.8v. Your converter will not go into bulk charge until your battery reaches around 11v. Shaun)

So that's it, I've done all I can until something gets worse or goes back to normal (which rarely happens).

Thanks everyone for your support and help trying to help me fix something that's not broken. It would be VERY difficult to own a trailer and travel without support from the forum. There's just something new every day. I talk with people in RV parks quite often that don't belong to an RV forum and aren't interested. I don't know how they get by. Some don't even carry basic tools with them. I'm hauling around about 250 pounds of tools and I wonder all the time if I need more.

Anyway, thanks again.

Dustin
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Old 10-26-2022, 10:53 AM   #16
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660catman - Thanks for the feedback. I'm out in the woods. My plan is to leave my trailer in Tucson until January when we come back from Kansas for the winter.
I guess I'll bring my load tester and hydrometer (and a battery charger) back with me in January. But, maybe I don't really have a problem.

Thanks,
Dustin
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Old 10-26-2022, 11:23 AM   #17
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Thanks for posting back what you found out. Now you have a better understanding of the situation / problem. I have delt with WFCO before and they are very helpful.
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Old 10-26-2022, 05:39 PM   #18
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What did we learn?

I think this will be my last update on this.* I'd hate for somebody to come looking for a solution to a similar problem, read through all this stuff and end up with no real answer.

After it warmed up today I went fly fishing again.* Didn't catch anything but sure had fun. I like for things to make sense and I things this last post will help close some gaps in the results.* We were gone fishing for about 5 hours and during that time we shut everything DC powered off.* The LED indicator now reads fully charged with the converter shut off.* So, it did get charged up and I'll be monitoring it for the next few days.

About those pesky amp readings from early this morning.* They didn't make any sense so I looked up info on this Digital*MultiMeter*(DMM).* Turns out, anything I clamp it to, including water pipes, ropes, anything, it will give a reading anywhere from 2.5 amps to 4.7 amps.* So....... that's one of the reasons*DMMs have a REL button (Relative button).* So you zero out the amp meter*and then take a reading RELATIVE to the zero.* So I tried that, and it now makes sense.

The first amp reading of the large diameter battery lead was*+.90 amps, that was current running into battery from the converter.

The second reading was after turning off the converter and it read -.20 amps.* That's the current being drained by all the stuff you can't shut off and what makes your batteries go dead after about 3 weeks with no shore power.

The third reading was with the converter off and all the LED lights in the trailer turned on; -7.2 amps.* All the lights using 7 amps and the .2 amps running all the crap you can't turn off.

After doing all this which took about 5 minutes maybe, I switched the converter on and the amperage read*+2.9 amps, that's the converter trying to recharge the batteries after we ran all the LED lights for a few minutes.

What else did we learn:

The truck supplies voltage to the trailer*via pin 4 of the 7 pin connector and pin 1 is ground. If the alternator is charging the voltage will read about 14.4 volts but could be as low as 12.9 if the alternator isn't charging.* Opinions vary concerning how much current the truck can supply to the trailer (5 amps is a common beliefs on all the RV forums) but even at 14.4 volts and 20 amps it only needs to supply 250 watts so 14 gauge wire is more than sufficient.* The voltage to the 7 pin is routed through a 40 amp fuse and then a relay that turns on when the ignition is turned on.* No ignition, no voltage at the 7 pin.* Think about it, lots of people run 1500 watt space heaters on 14 gauge wire (that's 120v and 12.5 amps).**

Turning to the 7pin on the trailer; you can measure the voltage of the batteries via pins 4 & 1.* I checked them with a voltmeter and pin 4 is routed directly*to the battery, which is alarming to me, but that's how it was wired.* Which means you can also measure the output* voltage of the converter using pins 4 & 1.*

Shaun, tech support engineer from WFCO* (converter manufacturer) says:**Your battery is fully charged at around 12.8v. Your converter will not go into bulk charge until your battery reaches around 11v. Shaun)
So, a 3 stage converter will:
Output 14.4 volts when the batteries get down to 11 volts.
Hover around 13.6 volts when the batteries are around 2/3 charged.
Drop to 13.2 to maintain the battery.

If you look at the data below you see a lead acid battery is considered 0% charge when the voltage reaches 11.8 volts, so it's not likely you'll ever see your 3 stage charger output at 14.4 volts (11 volts at the battery).* This warrants further investigation.

If you're wondering why I write all this up; I email it to myself so I don't have to figure all this stuff out again in 6 months or 3 years.**

Thanks again to everyone for your help and ideas.**

Dustin

This past summer I contacted Interstate Battery to get some specifications when I was learning about equalizing deep cycle batteries for my 36 volt golf cart.* Golf cart batteries are now about $180 each and the cart uses 6 of them.* So keeping them in good condition is critical.


Interstate SRM-24* 12v battery Specific Gravity at 100% charge is 1.285
Internal Resistance:* 5.1m Ohm
Float* *2.20v/cell = 13.2 volts (considered fully charged).


This summer project produced this information*on deep cycle lead acid batteries:

Voltage on a fully charged*battery*in good condition will read 2.12 to 2.15 volts per cell (about 12.75 volts for a 12 volt*battery, or 6.40 for a 6 volt)

Voltage readings to determine state of charge (open circuit readings):
State of* * * * * * Sealed or Flooded Lead
Charge* * * * * * * Acid battery Voltage
100%* * * * * * * * *12.70+
75%* * * * * * * * * *12.40
50%* * * * * * * * * *12.20
25%* * * * * * * * * *12.00
0%* * * * * * * * * * *11.80

https://www.energymatters.com.au/bat...age-discharge/


Specific Gravity Readings to determine State of Charge:
12.75 & Above = 100% Charged
12.60 to 12.74 = 85 to 100% Charged
12.40 to 12.59 = 75 to 85% Charged
12.20 to 12.39 = 50 to 75% Charged
12.00 to 12.19 = 25 to 50% Charged
12.00 & Below = Fully Discharged

///// end of data //////////////
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Old 10-26-2022, 06:25 PM   #19
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Routing of TV wiring to charge RV batteries?

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Old 10-26-2022, 10:53 PM   #20
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Quote:
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... at 14.4 volts and 20 amps it only needs to supply 250 watts so 14 gauge wire is more than sufficient. ...
That's a confusing statement because voltage has nothing to do with determining wire size. Wire size is determined by amperage, length of wire and permissible voltage drop. Voltage is a consideration in determining the coating on the wire. 14 gauge wire is rated for 15 amps. 12 gauge wire is rated for 20 amps.
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